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胡如珊畢業(yè)于加州大學伯克萊建筑學院，獲建筑學學士學位；之后又獲得普林斯頓大學建筑及城市規(guī)劃碩士學位。在2004年，胡如珊女士與郭錫恩先生共同創(chuàng)立了如恩設計研究室（NERI&HU）。
作為中國當代先鋒女性建筑師，堅持以作品來說話。其作品在堅持先鋒立場的同時，往往給人帶來本土的記憶。不刻意追求形式的背后，對設計問題的深入分析研究，做具有批判思維的建筑師。
2017年5月7日14:00-17:30，清華大學學生文化活動中心多功能廳，榫卯Talks，讓我們一起分享她最為獨到的建筑觀點。
——編者
受訪人：胡如珊
如恩設計（Neri&Hu）與設計共和（Design Republic）
創(chuàng)始合伙人
普林斯頓大學建筑及城市規(guī)劃碩士
2016&2015同濟大學建筑與城市規(guī)劃學院碩博研究生課程客座講師
2017年EDIDA國際設計大獎年度設計師
Q：上海對你們來說意味著什么？上海的本土元素是否會融入你們的設計之中？
A：我的父親是上海人，從上海到臺灣、到美國，最終又回到了上海，在這里工作生活。我的設計靈感大部分來源于日常的生活，平凡的人，普通的事，當然也包括上海這座城市的獨特肌理，城市內外發(fā)生的日常活動與事件都是我們創(chuàng)意的源泉。
與倫敦或紐約不同，上海這座亞洲城市蘊含著許多亞洲以及中國的元素。在某些方面，它其實有著非常多的本土特色，不像倫敦、紐約這樣的城市那么現(xiàn)代化。比如，在市井深處的一些街巷，你完全看不到任何國際大都市的元素，它仍然和20年前一樣，具有它自身獨特的吸引力。
My father was from Shanghai, and I felt it was a personal coming-back-forth circle for me to move back and to practice to Shanghai.
I’m very much inspired by the everyday, the mundane and the ordinary. The very fabric of Shanghai as a city and the everyday activities in and around the city is very much an inspiration.
Shanghai is mostly different from London and New York because it is an Asian city, so the qualities of Asia/China, is embedded within everything we see around the city.It is also very raw in certain parts, in ways that you can no longer see in more modernized cities like NY and London.For example, within some lanes and in small strips of the city you cannot see any sign of the world at large, it's still like how the city was 20 years ago, and that in itself is very charming.
Q：如恩有很多上海老房子的改造項目，在選擇材料上，你們是如何考慮的？
A：這些老房子的改造有時會采用相同的材料，并在臨時的場景中重復使用，如紅磚、灰磚；有時又會運用具有古典現(xiàn)代主義意義的普通材料來展現(xiàn)裝飾歷史與現(xiàn)代主義簡潔之間的對話，例如大面積的透明玻璃，鋒利的槽鋼，白石膏或石膏板。淺橡木或深胡桃木等天然材料常用作室內裝飾，能營造出溫暖的空間氛圍，平衡歷史建筑的過去與未來。
Sometimes it is taking the same material and repeating it in temporary context, such as red or grey bricks, other times it is using quiet, ordinary material in the classical sense of modernism to showcase a dialogue between the ornamented history and the cleanliness of modernity, such as large panels of clear glass, sharp- edged steel channels, and white plaster or gypsum board. Natural wood, either light oak or dark walnut, have often been considered for interior finishes, for the warmth it brings to a space, and the balance it brings to a historic building that mediates between past and future.
Q：在項目的建造過程中，你們是否遇到過特別難以解決的問題？又是如何處理的？
A：時間的限制是最大的難題，很多的項目都需要在“昨天”完成，我們希望能夠有更多的時間和空間對設計進行綜合考慮。
有時候也會遇到一些比較難溝通的業(yè)主。對于一個項目的構想和概念會有不同的意見，這樣的問題還是會通過更多的溝通的來解決，但是也會消耗很多的時間和精力。
Time constraint is the biggest problem. All projects need to be finished yesterday, which leaves little room or time to think about design in a comprehensive way.
Difficult client is another big issue.It is always hard to work with people who don't see your vision and do not support your ideas.
Q：在如恩諸多酒店建筑的設計中，你們是否秉持著類似的一種審美傾向？
A：在設計的時候，我們很少會用某種風格來定義自己。如果一定要加個標簽的話，我們覺得自己是“具有批判性思維的建筑師”，深入研究問題，并找出對應的解決辦法。我們對空間和材料的本質有自己的執(zhí)念和解讀，因而會更多傾向于接近天然材料和柔和色調的審美。
We rarely think of the labeling of styles when we design.If anything, we like to see ourselves as “critical thinking architects”, where we probe into problems in a deep way and come up with resolutions that respond to the problem.We uphold a certain obsession and ideal about the "truth" in space and material, and therefore it naturally leads to an aesthetic that is closer to natural materials and a muted color palette.
Q：如恩在保持國際性的同時，是怎樣傳遞中國的本土意識的？你們試圖去創(chuàng)造一種“中國設計”嗎？
A：國際的設計每時每刻都在向中國滲透，中國自己也在飛速地吸收著這些能量。這種現(xiàn)象帶來的一個問題就是大部分人對自己所看到和使用的東西并不在意，無論好壞與否，適合與否，都被全盤接受。
我們一開始接受的是西方傳統(tǒng)建筑教育，但從文化上來說，我們又非常本土化（中國化），這種融合無疑對我們有著很大的影響，特別是對于國內的項目。但對于國外的項目，我們也會去探索項目當?shù)氐奈幕蜌v史。
我們不會去刻意做什么，而且這種本地化的探索并不適用于所有項目類型。但有些時候，我們也會嘗試尋找傳遞、展現(xiàn)“文化”的新方法。建筑中體現(xiàn)的文化是很難形容的，但我們的目標和興趣是嘗試新的方式，并喚醒一種不同于以往的一成不變或過度使用的中國文化意識。
China is being infiltrated with global energy and design influence on a daily basis, and the absorption rate is extremely high.The problem that comes with this phenomenon is that people are not quite critical about what they see and use, so regardless of good/bad, appropriate/inappropriate, they are all being taken in.
The traditional western architectural rhetoric form the basis of our education, but culturally we are very much Chinese, and there are Influences particularly in our work that’s located in China. We also like to examine local culture of where our work is so that depends on where the project is located.
We don't try to do anything forced, and such exploration isn't appropriate for every project type.When it is interesting, however, we do try to find new ways of expressing and representing "culture", in a way.What culture is in architecture is hard to say, but our intention and interest is trying ways that are fresh and evokes a different sense of Chinese culture from the one that's stereotypical or overly used.
Q：你認為的城市應該是怎樣的？設計師在這樣的語境下應該扮演怎樣的角色？
A：我認為城市是文化生產的場所，是集體回憶的基礎，意義遠遠超越了現(xiàn)今大多數(shù)城市規(guī)劃者所關注的數(shù)據(jù)和圖表。我認為，它的神圣和象征功能要比實際的居住功能更為重要。我認為現(xiàn)今建筑師的角色與阿爾伯蒂時期并無太大差異。當時他認為建筑師是哲學家、才藝學生，在文化領域具有重要的領導地位。考慮到這一點，我的工作不只是聽從大家的商業(yè)意見，而是在與開發(fā)商/業(yè)主的合作中保持高度敏銳感。我們不僅要評判業(yè)主的要求，也要評判我們自己的工作。我們應該堅信一些先鋒的東西，不屈服于平庸或無意義。我們每個人可能關心的問題都不同，環(huán)境、美學或形式等等，無論如何，這就是我們應該堅定的立場。
I believe the city to be the site for cultural production and the ground for collective memory that goes beyond just data and charts that most urbanists today is focusing on.I believe that the sacred and symbolic functions are more important than its practical settlement functions. I see the role of the architect today as still not too different from Alberti's time, when he advocated for the Architect as philosopher and students of many arts, that the Architect has an important leadership role in the cultural realm. With this in mind, our job is not simply to "go with the flow" in a commercial sense, nor do we work alongside developers as "clients" without bringing a keen sense of criticality into everything we do.We must be our client's critic as well as our own work's critic.We should be the vanguard of those things that we believe in, and not succumb to mediocrity nor meaninglessness. Each of us may be concerned with different issues, some environmental, others aesthetics and formalism...etc.Whatever it is, that's what we ought to stand up firmly for.
Q：扎根城市不是一件容易的事。在國內這樣的大環(huán)境下，建筑師會經常面臨一些現(xiàn)實的局限，如時間壓力或一些不可預測的條件等，通常你是如何應對的？從最初的建筑實踐到現(xiàn)在，你是如何堅持自己的設計哲學，保證在每個項目里都有自己的研究和探索？
A：首先，要與合適的業(yè)主合作，當這些業(yè)主與你一樣對某一問題感興趣，他們就會為你的探索或嘗試買單。當這樣的業(yè)主找到你，他們也會把你的這種探索視為對他們有價值的東西，有時是一種商業(yè)/品牌價值，有時是項目的原創(chuàng)性，這些能驅使他們的野心和合作精神。
我們還需要堅持我們的價值體系，而不輕易受到時尚或潮流的影響。在探索和嘗試過程中的每一個環(huán)節(jié)都保持批判，并且拒絕隨波逐流，這是我們認為至關重要的態(tài)度。
The beginning is working with the right clients who are interested in the same issues as you, because in a way they have to pay the bill for your exploration.When you have the right client, they will see this exploration as something valuable for them as well, sometimes it is a business/brand value, other times it is the originality of the project that drives their ambition and collaborative spirit.
We also need to hold on to our value system and not be easily swayed by fashion or trend. Stay critical in every step of the process and be courageous to go against the tide is very important.
Q：雖然不太贊同將女性建筑師單獨拿出來討論，但實在忍不住好奇。作為國內較知名的女性建筑師之一，你覺得自己的優(yōu)勢在哪里？又有哪些挑戰(zhàn)呢？
A：老實說，我的性別沒帶給我什么優(yōu)勢，我的合伙人是一位男性，所以我們是一個非常平衡的組合。
我也不認為我是一個獨自實踐的設計師，事實上，我和我的團隊一起工作，而不是像畫家或音樂家一樣自己單獨完成工作。挑戰(zhàn)很多，無處不在，而且不只局限于中國。打破默守陳規(guī)總是很難，這對誰來說都一樣。因此要把重點放在工作上，不要聽太多與工作無關的謠傳或議論。
大多數(shù)人會通過封面來評判一本書的好壞，也許很多人，尤其是在項目會議上第一次見到我的業(yè)主和顧問，他們一開始不會像對待同年齡、同經驗的男性建筑師一樣尊重我。因此我需要更努力，更好地工作，讓我的作品，而不是我的性別、膚色或面孔來說話。
No strength, really, because I practice with my partner who is a man, so we are seen as a balanced duo. I like to see my strength as coming from my training, my background, my discipline and critical thinking, rather than being female.
I also don't think I am taken as a solo designer, and in fact I work with the office in a team and never perform solo, unlike a painter or musician.The challenges are more, but the challenges are everywhere and not just China.Fighting stereotype is always hard, but who doesn’t? In one way or another?So it is important to focus on the work, and not listen too much to rumors or criticisms beyond the work itself.
Most judge a book by its cover, and at first glance maybe a lot of people, especially clients and consultants who first meet me in a project meeting will not respect you as much as if I were a man of the same age and experience.So you just work harder to perform better, and let your work speak instead of your gender, color, or face.
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