我讀到了什么？
1. What is the shadows?? 這個問題c,k,栗子，s, 壯都好像都有各自解答。我沒有答案，只是找到Benjamin Jowett的這個版本里頭的句子
He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the?shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects?themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and?he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?
在寫shadows之前有段話
允許我搬運下
ALLAN版本
Someone dragged him away from there byforce along the rough, steep, upward way and did not let him go before he haddragged him out into the light of the sun, wouldn’t he be distressed andannoyed at being so dragged? And when he came to the light, wouldn’t he havehis eyes full of its beam and be unable to see even one of the things now saidto be true?
另外一個版本
And suppose once more, that he isreluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he isforced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained andirritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he willnot be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.
翻譯
“再說，如果有人硬拉他走上一條陡峭崎嶇的坡道，直到把他拉出洞穴見到了外面的陽光，不讓他中途退回去，他會覺得這樣被強迫著走很痛苦，并且感到惱火；當他來到陽光下時，他會覺得眼前金星亂蹦金蛇亂串，以致無法看見任何一個現在被稱為真實的事物的。你不認為會這樣嗎？
格：噢，的確不是一下子就能看得見的。
蘇：因此我認為，要他能在洞穴外面的高處看得見東西，大概需要有一個逐漸習慣的過程。首先大概看陰影是最容易，其次要數看人和其他東西在水中的倒影容易，再次是看東西本身；經過這些之后他大概會覺得在夜里觀察天象和天空本身，看月光和星光比白天看太陽和太陽光容易。
格：當然啰。
蘇：[…]”
摘錄來自:柏拉圖(Plato).“理想國(商務漢譯世界學術名著叢書)”。iBooks.
2. What is the function of educator? 教育工作者很熱愛自主天資又好的學生，就像良田不用太多辛勞也能收獲滿滿，但是好像誰說過，能把最調皮的娃娃教好才是好老師，更何況 英語當中有句話叫做For those who can't do,teach;for those who can't teach,teach gym.足以證明我當老師的疑惑，就是我的職責到底是啥？估計這個書給了點啟示，enlightener?or?Inspiration?? Maybe the answer is here
告知各位，其實每個個體學習能力都存在，是何時何地被何人喚醒而已，不知這個人是不是你的老師而已。the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already;（然后我說下，我對比了兩個英文版本allan和benjamin的，而且也貼了中文，權當我是個搬運工。而且對我而言benjamin的版本英文好讀點）
ALLAN版本
We must hold the following about thesethings:education is not what the professions of certain men assert it to?be.They presumably assert that they put into the soul knowledge that isn’tin it, as though they were putting sight into blind eyes.
另外一版本But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must bewrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was notthere before, like sight into blind eyes.
“蘇：如果這是正確的，那么關于這些事，我們就必須有如下的看法：教育實際上并不像某些人在自己的職業中所宣稱的那樣。他們宣稱，他們能把靈魂里原來沒有的知識灌輸到靈魂里去，好像他們能把視力放進瞎子的眼睛里去似的。”
摘錄來自:柏拉圖(Plato).“理想國(商務漢譯世界學術名著叢書)”。iBooks.
另外一版本Whereas,our argument shows that the power and capacity of?learning exists in the soul already;and that just as the eye was unable toturn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument ofknowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the worldof becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight ofbeing, and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good.
Allan版本
But the present argument, on the otherhand, I said, indicates that this power is in the soul of each, and that theinstrument with which each learns-just as an eye is not able to turn toward thelight from the dark without the whole body- must be turned around from thatwhichis coming into beingtogether with the whole soul until it is ableto endure looking at that which is and the brightest part of that which is. Andwe affirm that this is the good, don’t we?
翻譯
“蘇：但是我們現在的論證說明，知識是每個人靈魂里都有的一種能力，而每個人用以學習的器官就像眼睛?！麄€身體不改變方向，眼睛是無法離開黑暗轉向光明的。同樣，作為整體的靈魂必須轉離變化世界，直至它的“眼睛”得以正面觀看實在，觀看所有實在中最明亮者，即我們所說的善者。是這樣吧？”
摘錄來自:柏拉圖(Plato).“理想國(商務漢譯世界學術名著叢書)”。iBooks.
3. What is the difference between “coming into being “ vs “being“??
提這個問題是因為上任分享人的最后一句話讓我不解
而且我并未有答案,而且我感覺很多時候，就像那個單詞shadow或是coming into being或是being 隨著這個單口相聲的書的行進，感覺每次格附和一次贊同一次，即便同一個單詞，又比上一個議題里談論的更深一次。而且蘇很黑的是，當我快看完這一整章節，才明白了這個study劃分的意義所在。談及這四個層面的原因在于four divisions; two for intellect and two for opinion, and to call thefirst division science, the second understanding, the third belief, and the fourth perception of shadows。這里再次出現perception of shadows讓我不自覺聯想起這一章開頭提及的shadows.所以還原到第一個問題什么是shadows，我只能說沒答案。
Study for the young
First study:calculation 算術
Second study: plane geometry平面幾何
Third study: solid geometry立體幾何
Fourth study: astronomy天體學
Why indeed, he said, when any name will dowhich expresses the thought of the mind with clearness?
At any rate, we are satisfied, as before,to have four divisions; two for intellect and two for opinion, and to call thefirst division science, the second understanding, the third belief, and the fourth perception of shadows, opinion being concerned with becoming, and intellect with being; and so to make a proportion:—
As being is to becoming, so is pureintellect to opinion. And as intellect is to opinion, so is science to belief,and understanding to the perception of shadows.
But let us defer the further correlationand subdivision of the subjects of opinion and of intellect, for it will be along enquiry, many times longer than this has been.
ALLAN版本
Just as before, to call the first partknowledge, the second thought, the third trust, and the fourth imagination; andthe latter two taken together, opinion, and the former two, intellection. Andopinion has to do with coming into being and intellection with being; and as being is to coming into being, so is intellection to opinion; and asintellection is to opinion, so is knowledge to trust and thought toimagination. But as for the proportion between the things over which these areset and the division into two parts of each- the opinable and the intelligible-let’s let that go, Glaucon,so as not to run afoul of arguments many timeslonger than those that have been gone through.
“那么讓我們滿足于前面用過的那些個名稱吧，[12]把第一部分叫做知識，第二部分叫做理智，第三部分叫做信念，第四部分叫做想象；又把第三部分和第四部分合稱意見，把第一部分和第二部分合稱理性；意見是關于產生世界的，理性是關于實在的；理性和意見的關系就像實在和產生世界的關系，知識和信念的關系、理智和想象的關系也像理性和意見的關系。至于和這些靈魂狀態對應的事物之間的關系，以及它們再各細分為兩部分，能意見的部分和能理知的部分。這些問題，格勞孔，我們還是別去碰它吧，免得我們被卷進一場更長時間的辯論中去?！?/p>
摘錄來自:柏拉圖(Plato).“理想國(商務漢譯世界學術名著叢書)”。iBooks.
4. Why the name of the book called THEREPUBLIC? 我只是有點點理解為啥這本書叫理想國，如果是self-taught 一撥人還好沒義務責任回到下面，來協調管理city,但如果是另外一種情況也就是國家培養的就必須適應，從而更好管理國家。還有一點私人感想，這里所提及動political life并非我之前的偏見概念，讀后刷新了這個term在我內心的地位。原來這確實是個偉大的事業。刷新三觀關于Political life句子如下
who else will you compel to go to theguarding of the city than the men who are most prudent in those things throughwhich a city is best governed, and who have other honors and a better life thanthe political life?
下面繼續搬運，滿滿看吧，各位。特意強調下這句that it ‘s not theconcern of law that any one class in the city as a whole, harmonizing the citizens by persuasion and compulsion, making them share with one another the benefit that each is able to bring to the commonwealth.
看到時候明白原來每個公民身上的不可推卸的social or republic responsibility 在這里有體現。
“蘇：那么，格勞孔，你得看到，我們對我們之中出現的哲學家也不會是不公正的；我們強迫他們關心和護衛其他公民的主張也是公正的。我們將告訴他們：“哲學家生在別的國家中有理由拒不參加辛苦的政治工作，因為他們完全是自發地產生的，不是政府有意識地培養造就的；一切自力更生不是被培養而產生的人才不欠任何人的情，因而沒有熱切要報答培育之恩的心情，那是正當的。但是我們已經培養了你們——既為你們自己也為城邦的其他公民——做蜂房中的蜂王和領袖；你們受到了比別人更好更完全的教育，有更大的能力參加兩種生活[2]。因此你們每個人在輪值時必須下去和”“其他人同住，習慣于觀看模糊影像。須知，一經習慣你就會比他們看得清楚不知多少倍的，就能辨別各種不同的影子并且知道影子所反映的東西的，因為你已經看見過美者、正義者和善者的真實。因此我們的國家將被我們和你們清醒地管理著，而不是像如今的大多數國家那樣被昏昏然地管理著，被那些為影子而互相毆斗，為權力——被當作最大的善者——而相互爭吵的人統治著。事實是：在凡是被定為統治者的人最不熱心權力的城邦里必定有最善最穩定的管理，凡有與此相反的統治者的城邦里其管理必定是最惡的?！?br>
Observe, Glaucon, that there will be noinjustice in compelling our philosophers to have a care and providence ofothers; we shall explain to them that in other States, men of their class arenot obliged to share in the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for theygrow up at their own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them.Being self-taught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture?which they have never received. But we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty. Wherefore each of you, whenhis turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get thehabit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see tenthousand times better than the inhabitants of the den, and you will know whatthe several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen thebeautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State, which is alsoyours, will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in aspirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another aboutshadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyesis a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers aremost reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and theState in which they are most eager, the worst.
另外一版本You have again forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of thelegislator, who did not aim at making any one class in the State happy abovethe rest; the happiness was to be in the whole State, and he held the citizenstogether by persuasion and necessity, making them benefactors of the State, andtherefore benefactors of one another; to this end he created them, not toplease themselves, but to be his instruments in binding up the State.
My friend, you have again forgotten, Isaid, that it ‘s not theconcern of law that any one class in the city as a?whole, harmonizing the citizens by persuasion and compulsion, making them share with one another the benefit that each is able to bring to the commonwealth.
“蘇：朋友，你又忘了，我們的立法不是為城邦任何一個階級的特殊幸福，而是為了造成全國作為一個整體的幸福。它運用說服或強制，使全體公民彼此協調和諧，使他們把各自能向集體提供的利益讓大家分享。而它在城邦里造就這樣的人，其目的就在于讓他們不致各行其是，把他們團結成為一個不可分的城邦公民集體?！?/p>
摘錄來自:柏拉圖(Plato).“理想國(商務漢譯世界學術名著叢書)”。iBooks.
最后兩點補充，一是翻譯相關的，另外一個是漏了的英文
翻譯很有意思的點
“so it seems,“ he said.翻譯為“格：很可能有這種技巧。”
技巧在于肯定教育的功能時候同時用這個sight的類比
What studies have such a power?
Would be a study to draw the soul frombecoming to being? Weren’t we saying that it’s necessary for these men to be championsin war when they are young?
Whats the qualification of being achampions?
Our guardian is both warrior and philosopher
還有個問題，如下句中的一個短語：
This wouldn’t be theTwirling of a?shell??but the turning of a soul around from a day that is like night tothe true day
典故easy?這里twirling of a shell 應是簡單的意思？有典故么？因為我搜居然有這個小孩子的翻貝殼游戲。
居然差點忘了寫讀到這時候腦袋里就三個字：敬畏感
他用的詞是craftsman of heaven來代指creator
原始句子allan版本這樣寫he will hold that the craftsman of heaven composed it and whats in it as beautifully as such works can be composed
Motion, I said, has many forms, and not one only; two of them are obvious enough even to wits no better than ours; and there are others, as I imagine, which may be left to wiser persons.
But where are the two?
There is a second, I said, which is the counterpart of the one already named. And what may that be?
The second, I said, would seem relatively to the ears to be what the first is to the eyes; for I conceive that as the eyes are designed to look up at the stars, so are the ears to hear harmonious motions; and these are sister sciences—as the Pythagoreans say, and we, Glaucon, agree with them?
“蘇：照我看，運動不是只有一種而是有多種。列舉所有運動種類這或許是哲人的事情，但即使是我們，也能說出其中兩種來。
格：哪兩種？
蘇：一是剛才說的這個天文學，另一是和它成對的東西。
格：是什么呢？
蘇：我認為我們可以說，正如眼睛是為天文而造的那樣，我們的耳朵是為和諧的聲音而造的；這兩個學科，正如畢達哥拉斯派所主張，我們也贊同的那樣，格勞孔，它們是兄弟學科。對嗎？”
摘錄來自: 柏拉圖 (Plato). “理想國 (商務漢譯世界學術名著叢書)”。 iBooks.
